Life without Big Tech: a Swiss experiment

Switzerland wants greater digital sovereignty. But how easy is it to break free from Google, Apple and Microsoft? Two Swissinfo journalists attempted to replace Big Tech services with Swiss and other European alternatives. Their experiment revealed the hidden dependencies, frustrations and surprising freedoms of life without the tech giants.

Journalists: Sara Ibrahim, Kristian Foss Brandt
Host: Jo Fahy
Audio editor: Michele Andina
Distribution and Marketing: Xin Zhang

SWI swissinfo.ch is a public service media company based in Bern, Switzerland. 

Transcript

Why Quit Big Tech

Jo Fahy 0:00

SwissInfo podcasts.

Sara Ibrahim 0:04

Why are people trying to remove big tech? I mean it's a privacy issue. It's also important, I think, to understand how really deep into the dependence on big tech we are.

Kristian Foss Brandt 0:16

We actually do pay with our data, we just don't know.

Sara Ibrahim 0:19

But we wanted at least to try ethical alternatives in the sense of how they are produced, how other people are treated, how other people in other countries are exploited to have this phone in our hands.

Kristian Foss Brandt 0:33

When I deleted uh ChatGBT and I saw conversations that I've had, the advertising profile basically it had on me, it was absolutely insane. It was much more insane than what you would have on Facebook.

Jo Fahy 0:45

I had a Linux, uh I had Linux computer when I was at university for like three years or something, and there were a lot of writing commands.

Kristian Foss Brandt 0:53

But there are also things that are just socially impossible when I try to de-epify myself from WhatsApp. Suddenly I just found myself not having any friends.

Digital Sovereignty Meets Daily Life

Jo Fahy 1:25

It's a question that plenty of people have been wondering about recently, and not just individuals either. Countries like Switzerland also want so-called digital sovereignty. Two Swiss info journalists have tried cutting out ties with US tech giants. So what happened? That's what we're getting into in this episode of the Swiss Connection Science Podcast. Hello, I'm Joe Faye. Most of our digital life, from photos of our big and small moments to our passwords and personal documents, is all stored somewhere in big tech's cloud infrastructure. Almost every interaction with the outside world, whether private or professional, passes through a handful of US companies. Switzerland and many other countries are pushing for digital sovereignty. That's the idea that essential technologies and data should stay under local control. But how realistic is that really? Can an individual person become independent of big tech? And could an entire country? Two of my colleagues, Sarah Ibrahim and Christian Voss Brandt, underwent an experiment to try this out. And they're here to tell me how it went. Sarah and Christian, welcome to the podcast. Hello. Hello, thank you. So to be completely honest, cutting out big tech from our life sounds like a little bit of a hassle. Okay, a lot of a hassle. A big hassle. So why did you set yourselves this challenge? Sara, I'll come to you first.

Sara Ibrahim 2:59

Yeah. You're right, Joe. It's a big challenge and it has really impacted our life a lot in my case, I uh I would say. Um

Privacy And The Hidden Data Price

Sara Ibrahim 3:10

but it's also uh important, I think, to understand how really deep into uh the dependence uh on big tech we are. So yeah, it's a hassle, but on the other hand, it can also open your eyes, which is important.

Jo Fahy 3:28

And you know, what's the reasoning behind this? Why did you try this and why are people trying to remove big tech from their lives? Should I maybe come to you on this one, Christian?

Kristian Foss Brandt 3:38

Sure, why are people trying to remove big tech? I mean, it's a privacy issue, right? A lot of our data is stored somewhere, we don't know where it is. Um and also if somebody, a private company, would get the opportunity to take all the data out, they they can. We actually do pay with our data, we just don't know. Um, so that's one of the things we we thought about when we did this uh experiment.

Sara Ibrahim 4:04

I have to say the truth that uh Christian really pushed for for this experiment. So, Christian, you are the initiator of all of this. And at the beginning, for me, it was like, what is this guy trying to do? I mean, I completely uh depend on my iPhone. I go everywhere with it, and everything, any piece of my life and my work is there. And of course, I've already tried to cut uh off big tech uh from my life, closing my Facebook account, for instance, one year ago. But still for me it was like, no, I can't. I can't live without my phone. It's impossible. But you pushed a lot for it.

Kristian Foss Brandt 4:51

Yeah, I did, I guess, yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry for that.

Jo Fahy 4:58

You're sorry for that. Okay. Well, that makes it all okay. I'm glad. But but where did you start in this experiment? Sorry, you said a year ago

The Experiment Setup And First Steps

Jo Fahy 5:05

you closed your Facebook account. I think it's something that quite a lot of people thought about, but maybe not everybody has done. What was your starting point this time around when you began this experiment together?

Sara Ibrahim 5:14

Yeah, we decided to split uh it a bit to make it easier. In my case, I started with my phone, trying to understand if alternatives, uh European alternatives and more sustainable ones would be available on the market. And with Christian, we um did research on that. It's not very easy to be completely 100% uh independent from big tech because still the components, the hardware components of the phones are still produced in a handful of countries, the US, the chips, and some uh other components in China. And it's impossible to find a phone that is completely free of that. But we wanted at least to try ethical alternatives in the sense of how they are produced, how other people are treated, how other people in other countries are exploited to have this phone uh in our hands. So this was also uh an important part. Even though, of course, it's not easy to completely uh look uh into the the topic uh from uh 360 uh degree perspective. So we focused on the software part, so try to use alternatives to the apps that we use every day, and also the operating system, of course. So we wanted something that didn't put us into the dependence with Google or uh Apple at the end. An open source operating system.

Jo Fahy 6:49

Yeah, because privacy is something that you mentioned at first, Christian. That's obviously a big concern. I think a lot of people are aware about if your data is stored in another country, what could happen to your data? There's lots of possibilities that people started to think about. So, Christian, Sarah was very focused on the phone, but you also um focused on your your personal computer, your laptop at home, and you changed

Linux And Email Without Google

Jo Fahy 7:10

operating systems. Is that right?

Kristian Foss Brandt 7:12

Yeah, true. Yeah, I went from what we all have usually, uh Windows, and then I changed to Linux. Uh but Linux uh as an open source system is mostly fully compatible with anybody's life. I mean, the the hard part is maybe installing it. It actually took even a day, I think, just to you know get it in, reboot, and so forth. Um, and then getting used to the apps, but uh but the how it looks, the interface is actually very similar to Windows. You wouldn't need a tech background to do it. Being on Linux feels like you're part of an open society, an open system where everybody shares, right? Like whereas Windows, it's something you pay for every year, and you're part of this closed loop, and it uh the prices always go up. I think this is uh this is a more interesting uh thing. And and it wasn't it wasn't that hard, right?

Jo Fahy 8:09

You know, it's funny listening to this because I had a Linux, uh I had Linux on my computer when I was at university for like three years or something, and there was a lot of writing commands.

Kristian Foss Brandt 8:18

Really?

Jo Fahy 8:19

But then it was okay, because you know I didn't have an iPhone then, obviously. Well not obviously, but I didn't. iPhones weren't you know in everybody's hands back in the olden days. Uh so yeah, you know, you kind of put up with these inconveniences, but nowadays I would never do that.

Kristian Foss Brandt 8:36

No. Yeah, okay, yeah, okay. So why not? When you already did it.

Jo Fahy 8:41

Yeah, but you know, that was then. Now I have even less time. Then time was endless. Exactly. Yeah, time uh is money. Yeah. I could sit around fiddling with the computer all day if I wanted to. But now I need things to work. But I haven't really thought about it in depth before. But now that we've talked about it, I'm thinking about it.

Kristian Foss Brandt 8:58

Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. But true, I mean it is a lot of work uh in the end, and maybe the time that I spent doing these things or learning them through also this was uh in the evening, maybe. Then part of the experiment for me was to change my email provider through like 15 years, right? Like Google Google Mail and and that also wasn't that hard. I mean, there's so many alternatives out there. There are Swiss alternatives, there are European alternatives. The problem might be that you don't have the same amount of available storage that you might need to pay. But if you delete your emails, that's also not a problem. So it really depends. Yeah.

Jo Fahy 9:38

So delete all, finally, you get to use that option. Exactly. That might feel good.

Kristian Foss Brandt 9:43

Yeah, I I loved that part, right?

LLMs And The Scary Data Trail

Kristian Foss Brandt 9:45

Like I had a Gmail through 15 years and there was just so much data to download on your computer. That's incredible. Yeah. But also anything we use in the in the cloud today, that's also a big part of what I wanted to see if there are alternatives, right? It could be switching Netflix to to something else, or it could be switching Claude or ChatGPT to Mistral, because then I at least kind of have a sense of the data is getting stored in Europe. It's not getting moved into some random state somewhere abroad where I don't know what people are using my very private data for. Because LLMs today is just even more private than before, right? When I uh deleted uh ChatGPT and I saw the conversations that I've had and the data it had on, like the advertising profile basically it had on me, it was just it was absolutely insane. It was much more insane than what you would have on Facebook. I mean, I think the way they can use the data they have in an LLM is is uh much further than what you used to do before. You consent uh basically by saying they're not uh they're not allowed to train your data, but you don't consent that they are not allowed to advertise in a future point, you know, for for you. And if they're advertising on a profile that is full of private data, I would find that's even worse.

Jo Fahy 11:06

So quick quick interjection for those of you who don't know what an LLM is, no shame in that. We're talking about large language models, for example. The most well-known uh one is ChatGPT, where you can ask it a question and it gives you an answer. Like magic.

Sara Ibrahim 11:19

Almost. And one note, let's not forget that we still had uh to rely on USLMs to get rid of uh our um mainstream apps and for instance to in to install an operating system that is open source on my phone. It was complicated. We we did it, especially Christian did it because he made it at the end, asking ChatGPT basically. So still there is the reliance there, we are not 100% free from big tech. That's clear.

Kristian Foss Brandt 11:57

Absolutely, yeah. Yeah. But as I'm saying, it helps you out a lot. LLMs can help you out, and that's also the thing. I think it's actually even easier today to to try and become independent because you just have a lot of technical help that you would not have before. When when there is an obstacle, then you go back to the better, the better software, which is usually these three huge tech companies today. Yeah.

Jo Fahy 12:24

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of pros and cons that you have to weigh up once you once you start looking at this.

Kristian Foss Brandt 12:29

True. Absolutely. It's I think it goes for the whole experiment as a whole, it's it was also a private thing, because of course we could not really go to work saying we we won't use any of the applications that we have at work. I still go to work using all the applications that I used before. Then I go home and then I kind of de, you know, de-americanize my tech load. But I think that's that's the thing. You cannot really

Work Tech That Refuses To Change

Kristian Foss Brandt 12:55

tell your boss, okay, we're gonna we're gonna go on Linux as of Monday.

Jo Fahy 13:00

That would be quite a big request potentially for a large company, but maybe in a smaller one.

Kristian Foss Brandt 13:06

Maybe I I think this is a great discussion. Whether we cannot do it or whether we just choose to be, you know, comfortable with the tech stack that we already have. I think this was also one of the s surrounding questions here. Is it really that impossible to go away, or is it just because we choose so because we don't want to disturb our employees, because we don't want to disturb our convenience uh at work. How long would it take if you really wanted to go away from American tech or from big tech? Um and I I think we found some answers here. It's really some things are very, very easy. You could do it tomorrow, and some things are are almost impossible.

Jo Fahy 13:47

So let's go to these almost impossible parts. Because I know that you researched this topic a lot before you started. But were there any problems that you didn't expect that were really difficult to deal with?

Sara Ibrahim 13:59

Yeah, of course, when you talk about the phone, all the problems come out very easily. Uh for instance, one very small, tiny thing, but I think important. My phone with uh the Fairphone 5 with uh an open source operating system that is still based on Android but the Googled from uh Android Services, didn't have a QR code uh reader integrated in the camera. I'm not sure if it is a choice, production choice, also for uh privacy, or if not, but I had basically to download an app to read the QR code. This was the first tiny

Phone Friction And App Breakdowns

Sara Ibrahim 14:40

thing. But yeah, when you are used to just uh read a QR code very uh quickly and it doesn't work, then you waste time, right? And so that of course made me annoyed because in our daily life we want technology that is working. And then, of course, there was the biggest part related to all the apps related to work. They just don't work on an operating system that is not uh Google, Android, or Apple uh iOS. So I'm cut off any working app from Teams to emails to Outlook. It just doesn't work. So we we asked already our IT colleagues, and they said it was really a choice by the SRG for security reasons basically. So I cannot use those apps on my fair phone. For this reason, I still have my iPhone, I still use that, and I have it with with uh bad apps that I don't want on my nice and and free from uh big tech uh new phone.

Jo Fahy 15:51

Yeah, because of course these are the two kind of concerns that aren't always uh easy to reconcile. You know, the concerns and security of a large company, and then there may be ethical concerns of an individual.

Kristian Foss Brandt 16:01

Yeah, I mean I can follow up on that because we were talking about things that were impossible, right? You you were talking about things that are really impossible,

The Social Lock In Of Messaging

Kristian Foss Brandt 16:10

like apps that don't work, don't work with your with your work. But there are also things that are just socially impossible. Like when you have apps, like messenger apps, for instance, and you want to go to an alternative that you know is ethically better or morally better or whatever, these apps uh are like basically empty because none of your friends are there. That I experienced when I tried to, let's say, de-appify myself from from uh WhatsApp. Suddenly I just found myself not having any friends.

Jo Fahy 16:43

It's the But was that the app's fault or was that something else?

Kristian Foss Brandt 16:46

Exactly right. There was no friends before that. Um the thing is you you can't you can't you can't move your whole base of friends there, right? Yeah. And and somebody there has to be this big pull. And I I think this is what we always see. There are alternatives to X or the alternatives to Facebook, but most of people they don't go there. So yeah.

Sara Ibrahim 17:11

I faced the same problem when I installed Signal on my fair phone. I decided, of course, not to have at the same time WhatsApp on the same phone, and I tried to explain to my friends on WhatsApp that I was not using that uh anymore. And some people, for instance, I was very surprised. My mom, she's 75 years old, and she's really a boomer, so she doesn't have any kind of uh experience with uh technology. But she was the first person to transition to Signal because she wanted so badly to be in contact with uh her daughter. Um that's nice. Yeah. If the motivation is there, people can make a change. Yeah. Good for your mom. That's true. But I think there is also um kind of cultural thing or a question of not understanding why, if everyone is on WhatsApp, uh you are not there and you want other people, you want to force other people to install another app. So why should I have another app that's just for you, just to be in touch with you? Um so I think there is also this component of people disturbed by the fact that they don't understand why it's important.

Jo Fahy 18:32

Yeah, absolutely. That can be really difficult to explain reasons behind things that you do, I think, with technology and social platforms at the moment. So we talked a lot about the problems, of which there were many, I understand. But tell me, were there any parts that were actually much easier than you expected? I would love to hear if that happened.

Sara Ibrahim 18:49

Yeah, I think it's more of a feeling. So you feel immediately freer.

Feeling Freer With Fewer Notifications

Sara Ibrahim 18:55

You feel that you are not so attached to the notification, to look at the emails and the messages from work every second, and so you can really have a break in your life. I uh experience it a lot uh in my free time. I don't look at the phone so often as it was before. And yeah, I feel really uh more disconnected. I think this is uh a really nice feeling, and also the fact that I think that I have my data more under my own control that I can decide where it goes and where it will be stored and what happens with it. It's a really nice feeling, uh, I think.

Jo Fahy 19:42

That's very interesting to hear.

Kristian Foss Brandt 19:44

Was it the same for you, Christine, or was there something else that was No, it's always the same because it's also sometimes a theoretical exercise. You're thinking, you know, this might not have an impact ever on me. Maybe nobody is gonna go after me and my data, but uh you feel better when you go uh and take care of your own data. But I don't think it's an easier process. There are not easier or better products out there. Mostly alternatives are the same or or worse, but again, you just you know what you pay for. Or at least if you get into this mindset, you understand why the products that you already had before, why they are better. They're better because what you pay for is the is with your data, right? So I feel better about myself. I feel I'm more safe if it's you come

Switzerland’s Push For Digital Sovereignty

Kristian Foss Brandt 20:35

to to show that somebody would uh steal, steal my data or use it for benign purpose. Yeah.

Jo Fahy 20:43

Um you wrote about all of this in your article that's on our website, Swissinfo.ch, in getting out of big tech. And in that article, you also mentioned that Switzerland wants to become more digitally independent. What does that mean exactly?

Sara Ibrahim 20:56

Of course, uh, with this geopolitical situation, also countries, also businesses, and not only uh private people understand the importance of being detached from services that could be just shut down from one day to another to disturb the workflow of an entire nation, for instance, or uh services that could increase their licenses fees for the same reason, or just because you are so dependent on them that they know it's uh hard to let them go. So also countries in many parts of the world, including Europe and including Switzerland, they aspire to more sovereignty, to more um neutrality in terms of also of the tech that they use. And of course, Switzerland being a neutral country, this is an important discussion to have. But there too, uh there are frictions and there are obstacles. But Switzerland is starting, I think, to To find better alternatives or or at least to have a plan B, let's say, in this sense. Okay.

Jo Fahy 22:07

So finally, then the big question.

Staying Independent Step By Step

Jo Fahy 22:10

Did you both stay divorced from the big tech companies, or were you happy to reconnect once this experiment was over? What happened?

Sara Ibrahim 22:20

The experiment, I don't think it's over for me. Ah, okay. So I'm I'm still on the experiment. Um I think it's uh it's important to give yourself a bit of time to get used to the new reality of your life with uh with a new phone, with other apps, trying to uh also bring more people on your side, let's say, especially in your family circles and friends. But yeah, I would say for the moment I'm in a limbo. So uh I'm still evaluating. I see um positive sides, but of course there are negative ones. Uh as we said before, uh, I don't like, for instance, that I have to go around with two phones. That's a pain, yeah. I think there are compromises that we have to make. This is clear.

Jo Fahy 23:13

Yeah, definitely. And you, Kristen?

Kristian Foss Brandt 23:16

Yeah, I mean I didn't set out to change my phone. It's still uh still a big tech phone. It still has uh Google systems. I've deleted many of the apps though. But that also creates its own problems, you know. When you delete Google, it wants to come back. So you get all kinds of error messages. But the other things, yeah, I changed my my my software, my Windows is not a part of my life at home. The same goes for email providers. I'm trying as well with any LLM that I use. So I think you know, I'm I'm just I this was the goal. I didn't see myself going completely rogue. I think it's a step-by-step approach as well. Nobody could just dive in and do it tomorrow, as with as with anything that you want to get out of, if you have any anything that you're addicted to. Yeah.

Jo Fahy 24:09

Okay, fantastic. So, Christian and Sarah, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today and telling us all about this experiment you've been going through. And if people want to read more about what you did, they can find your articles online at Swisinfo.ch. Yeah, thank you. Thanks. Coming up in the next episode of the Swiss Connection Science Podcast, we'll be finding out why it matters that everyone has a say in AI, from big companies to ordinary people. So hit subscribe now in your podcast feed to make sure you don't miss it. For more science stories, you can visit our website swisinfo.ch, and you can help others to find our podcast by leaving us a five-star review or share our podcast with a friend. Today's episode was recorded and edited by our science and video journalist Michaeli Andina. I'm Joe Fay. Thanks for listening to the colour.